Several days ago, Chadd Schroeder (picture to the right) in Guadalajara posted the following comment. It was in response to the story of Sean Hyatt in Aurora, Colorado beginning a CO2 with Oswaldo.I think what you, Sean, initiated with Oswaldo represents for me what has been a change of starting place with seekers. Instead of initially inviting people to join us in something (even a vibrant house church gathering) we are choosing CO2 relationships as the starting place and then waiting on God to see what God wants to do next.
What Chadd is saying has important implications for how we make disciples. What is the starting place in this process? Traditionally we would invite a seeker to a group meeting (house church)? Sean and Chadd are suggesting a radically different strategy. We need to hear more from you guys on this. What do you see as the potential benefits of this different starting place? What are you discovering in practice? Anyone else have ideas about this?
Here's another thought about this short paragraph that Chadd wrote...
I believe that what we are seeing (before our very eyes) is "a community of practice" in action. Do you realize how radical this is? Ever seen one before? Two people in two different countries who have never met each other learning together. And, they are doing in in front of our MRT Community so all of us are invited to join them. And, the learning isn't theoretical. These guys are practitioners. They are field testing it.
It's just a short paragraph but seems to me there is something important here. I'm not sure I can completely put it into words but it's like a whole new paradigm of learning. Community, global, practical, interactive...
Help me out. What do you see?
John
Sorry John (and everyone)...I got a little behind on the posts this past weekend.
ReplyDeleteRegarding the discussion about starting place...For a long time now, it has seemed clear that three key elements to following Jesus are intimacy with God, community and togetherness with others, and mission.
However, I haven't always had a strong conviction regarding which of these elements takes priority. I think I see this different now.
I think that one of the main benefits of starting with a CO2 type relationship with a seeker (instead of jumping straight to an invitation to get involved in a church gathering or something else) is that it is consistent with a core belief that relationship and intimacy with God and Christ is foundational (coming prior to community and mission)for healthy spiritual formation.
Although surely there are times when God moves so that someone first gets to know a Christian community or possibly first joins Christ-followers in some mission/service project, it seems like a default beginning place for helping a seeker begin experimenting with intimacy with God helps us keep first things first.
Also from my point of view, there is not nearly as much baggage involved when we begin the relationship here--it allows the true openness and willingness to invest in relationship with God (a measure of the readiness of one's heart?) to be exposed early on. Then, an invitation into community and mission will spring from the intmacy with God--and the person will be ready to respond obediently to that invitation...
This is interesting to me since we just had a discussion on Saturday in our MRT that got me to rethinking this idea of trying to find a place in one of our churches for people who come into our circle. I too have always thought it necessary to find a place to assimilate people in as the first step. Maybe not. But, for us, many of the people we talk to seem to be looking for "a church" to belong to apart from traditional church. I'm wondering how it would seem to folks like this to offer something like a CO2 relationship rather than a "Hey, come to my church!" kind of thing. Hmmmm.
ReplyDeleteI guess I should clarify things a bit more. Chadd is absolutely correct, I think, about a CO2 kind of relationship as being the best starting place for seekers, for all the reasons he noted. I'm wondering, though, where the best starting place is for already-Christians who are fleeing traditional church, hear a small bit about what we're up to, and want to know more.
ReplyDeleteI have had an inclination and desire to share CO2 with everyone. I have jumped on the bandwagon with great enthusiasm! I think it is a great starting place for Christians, non-Christians, and even those who have been and are leaders. It is not the only starting place. Our house churches do the CO2 disciplines as well. Our goal is to help people become attentive to the Lord. That happens in various spaces. We have found people engaging through both CO2 and the larger gathering.
ReplyDeleteI am reminded of a popular discussion: which comes first believing or belonging? A lot of recent approaches have said we belong before we believe. We meet Christ through a sense of belonging to His people. This seemed to be an accommodating approach against an expectation that until a person has completed the check list they could not belong to the community.
Forgive me, I have drawn a blank as to where I was going with that . . . weird. I will leave it up just in case it is worth reflection. One comment that does come to mind, as in the first paragraph, this is probably not a uniform experience either.
I've kept this post up on my screen for awhile now - and knew I needed to write something - but wasn't sure how to write it...
ReplyDeleteI have a concern that CO2s would not fit well with seekers - and I am using the term seeker to mean people who do not understand Christ as the center of their lives. Even though a seeker may find his/her place in faith through a spiritual friendship - the "hearing from God" piece of the CO2 doesn't seem to fit with the seeker's current orientation to God. I think I'd rather him/her be introduced to a spiritual family, and KNOW about the CO2s in our community, and of course he/she is building authentic relationships with the believers...but until there is some desire to hear from God on the part of the seeker, it seems he/she would not have much to say/do beyond the SASHET in a CO2 context.
However, God works in mysterious ways - in a CO2 God may inspire a seeker who sees his/her friend sharing his heart and hearing God's voice...
Just needed to put that out there for push back, etc.
Ron said: "I'm wondering, though, where the best starting place is for already-Christians who are fleeing traditional church..."
ReplyDeleteThe key question is why are they fleeing traditional church? There are, of course, lots of reasons but many of these people are looking for greater intimacy with Jesus and greater intimacy with other believers. When I've entered into a CO2 with Christians like this, they have come alive. They are thrilled to begin to learn and practice the two rhythms and it easily carries over into their house church experience.
So, I would say that a CO2 is often a great starting place for this kind of "seeker". That is, one who already has some sort of relationship with God but who is seeking greater intimacy with Him and with His people
Mark said: "I have a concern that CO2s would not fit well with seekers - and I am using the term seeker to mean people who do not understand Christ as the center of their lives. ...but until there is some desire to hear from God on the part of the seeker, it seems he/she would not have much to say/do beyond the SASHET in a CO2 context."
ReplyDeleteThanks for your comments, Mark! This whole conversation raises some fascinating issues.
I first want to affirm that "one size does not fit all". A CO2 is not the "cookie cutter" that we squeeze everyone into. Our "prime directive" with seekers, as with every other situation, is to find out what the Father is doing and do that (Jn. 5:19). A CO2 is simply one tool that the Father may (or may not) direct us to use. (Hey, He might have us spit on the ground and rub mud in the person's eyes!)
Second, it seems to me that the term "seeker" implies that God is already at work (preveniently!) in the person's life. They may or may not identify that hunger with God. Isn't our job, in most cases, to help them listen to that hunger? To help them by educing (Kent!) or drawing out what is going on in their heart. I suspect that a great many of these seekers would be interested in learning how to hear God's voice. (I saw one survey that said that 90% of Americans believe in prayer.)
Third, we need to address the theological question of wheither or not non Christians can hear God's voice. (I think they can.)
Finally, I think we will learn a lot about how to work with seekers by experimenting. If the Lord seems to prompt us, let's invite them into a CO2 and see what happens. (Just make sure you tell the rest of us what you learn!)
Ron said: "But, for us, many of the people we talk to seem to be looking for "a church" to belong to apart from traditional church. I'm wondering how it would seem to folks like this to offer something like a CO2 relationship rather than a "Hey, come to my church!" kind of thing. Hmmmm."
ReplyDeleteAgain, I don't see this as "either/or". In every situation, we need to listen well (to the person and to God) in order to discern how the Lord wants us to respond. It might mean inviting them into a CO2 and/or inviting them to our house church and/or ???
What I've done in many cases is simply say, "Here's something (the CO2) that has been very helpful in my walk with the Lord. Here's how it's been helpful... Would you be interested in trying this out with me for a week? We would do it for 7 days (or however long) and then step back and evaluate. If you are interested, here's what I want to suggest. Go check out this website (Stories from the Revolution) and then ask the Lord if this is something He wants you do to (ie, the CO2) and then give me a call in a day or two and let me know."
I never try and talk someone into a CO2. I also don't want them to do it because they think it would be a good idea. I only want them to do it because they feel God told them to. So, everything grows out of listening from the very beginning.
One more comment here. (I seem to have a lot to say on this topic of CO2s!)
ReplyDeleteAnother benefit of the CO2 is as a filter. This is an often overlooked aspect of disciplemaking. Here's what I mean...
In 2 Tim. 2:2, Paul instructs Timothy to "impart the things you learned from me to faithful men". The key word is "faithful" which I take to mean someone who will follow through on what they learn.
The unspoken opposite is "don't impart these things to men who are not faithful". No doubt Paul and Timothy had people in their lives, like we do, who may indicate an initial interest or who talk "a good game" but who are not at a place where they, for whatever reason, are not able to be faithful. (Perhaps they are like the seed in Mk. 4 that sprang up quickly but then quickly withered.)
What we know about faithfulness is that it cannot be assumed. It must be demonstrated. Doing a CO2 with someone for a week is a great way to see if they are faithful, if they will follow through on what they said they were committed to. It's really a way for people to self select. They get to decide each day if this is really something they are ready for.
The concept of filtering can save us lots of time and heartache by keeping us from investing heavily in people who simply aren't ready to respond. Seven days in a CO2 will tell us (and them) quite a lot about their level of faithfulness.
Thoughtful words! Thanks John. I agree that for many, the CO2 and various wineskins in the
ReplyDelete"Micro Layer" are an "on ramp" into obedience-based discipleship (not obedience to ME, but obedience to God's voice).
I think I'm still struggling with ways to incorporate this rhythm of listening to God's voice when the seeker is not ready/prepared to hear from God.
Maybe they are more ready that we realize - St. Patrick (happy Saint day Pat!) had a great run with his "anamchara" and the "Soul Friend" -- which he included the Druids into a heart-to-heart friendship and journey. The seekers in my life would understand listening to God's voice as "tuning into my own heart" or "listening to the earth" (we're connecting to a lot of occultists and the like in Chicago). I think this understanding is not to be confused with God's voice, but at the same time it is a springboard to helping them hear from God.
But can I really enter into a CO2 with someone who is seeking to listen to "the earth"? Or to their "inner self"? Even if I''m listening to God's voice and sharing my heart - I can only trust that God will speak to them, even if they don't yet know his voice. Jesus seemed to be okay doing that - I suppose I can be too. :)
Thanks for helping in this...
So many good comments here! So good to be a part of such a cool experiment!
ReplyDeleteI like that we are recognizing that different people are at different places and that God knows how to be and work at each one--think its good that we're not really interested in a one size fits all approach.
Certainly the God of our Story knows how to speak to people who don't know God yet!
I think this element of helping people grasp that God is a self-revealing God and that we humans can hear and connect with God is a key and one of the early on conversations that "seekers" need to consider.
And, in my experience in Mexico with people who have experienced serious brokenness and whose worldview comes from a mixture of sources, I've found it pretty important that they begin engaging the Story of scripture pretty early on. I've found that listening for God's voice and naming what they are hearing while they are also getting to know the biblical story is often a great combination--potent material out of which God can speak.
I'm not talking about a formulaic Bible study that gets people to believe what we want them to believe...but more of an encounter with God and God's Story.