More on CO2 and marriage

I've continued to think about Tim and Brittani's wedding. I am realizing that, for me, it represented something new and important that needs to be marked.

The clear message to the congregation from Tim and Brittani was "You are actually witnessing two things. The beginning of a new marriage. And, also the beginning of a new church." I wonder if that message has ever been communicated before in a wedding in the history of the world. Ok. That may be a little strong but you get the idea.

I've often thought that if this one idea ever began to spread, we could start a million house churches in a month. Hmm... Maybe it is beginning to spread!

See below for an "amen" to all of this from Wade Adams in Central Texas. Wade has recently started a MRT in the Kileen (TX) area.

John

"Dorothy and I have been using the CO2 to spark our conversation and to become more intentional in our partnership with the Lord. These two simple practices have been great for us."

Re-posting

Sometime God speaks to you about a particular blog post and you know the message will encourage others as well. Sending that post along to others is a simple but powerful way to "spread the word". Peg Batcheller is on a regular conference call to a group of women leaders. Recently, she re-posted the message below to her friends.

John

Ladies,

A few months ago John White invited me to join his interactive blog for Regional Leaders... http://regionalrevolutionaries.blogspot.com/ This is more than for those who lead a house church, but for those whose vision is much larger, for cities, regions, states, etc. As we talked last night, not only did he need to initiate the invitation, but I needed to respond, and to commit myself to work alongside him and others. I believe this has been a great example of Deborah and Barak, and the inspiration it gives to many of the other men (and few women) who interact with this site. I just wanted to share with you this mutual encouragement that transpires here.

Thanks for the call last night. I was very motivated and encouraged, and God is using these calls to define and clarify my thinking about what God is doing in our midst.

Blessings to you all,

Peg

Missional Resource Teams

Wednesday, June 23, 2010

Prevenience in Albuquerque

The email below from Peg Batcheller illustrates prevenience - God motivating this woman to call Peg.

This lady believed that if their house church "leader" left that the church could no longer function. (Sounds like traditional church thinking!) I love that Peg and Richard have been captured by a whole different way of thinking and are teaching it to many. The new paradigm is that every believer is truly a priest and that every household is a church. And, from those households, the Kingdom begins to flow into every neighborhood.

Way to go, Peg! We pray that the Lord will motivate many more calls just like this one.

Tell us your story of God taking the initiative.

John

I received a call from a woman who has been in a house church setting with a few others for the past few years. Their "leader" had to move out of town, so they were wondering if there were other HCs they could 'join' to continue receiving teaching. When I shared my heart about each household becoming a 'vital family of Jesus within close access of each neighborhood', she came alive again with a refreshed hope of revitalizing her group of friends. We'll be getting together soon, and I'm sure God will do a new and refreshing work in their circle of friends. Coincidentally, my ex-husband & I attended their house church gathering about 6 years ago, and she remembers me. It will be interesting to see how God has worked in my life over the years, and to see how God has been preparing them as well.

CO2, MRT and Weddings

Tamela and I just got back last night from Ohio where I officiated at the wedding of Tim and Brittani (Flory) Morris. (They sat right behind us on the plane coming back to Denver. See photo!)

I had the privilege of teaching CO2 to both Tim and Brittani and then they taught it to several people over the past year who ended up being in their wedding party. To hear Tim's story, go here: http://storiesfromtherevolution.blogspot.com/2010/04/c02-potential-for-inner-healing.html

They also wrote their own vows incorporating the understanding that this wedding was not just the beginning of a new marriage but also the beginning of a new church (CO2). Part of their commitment to each other was to regular times of listening to God together.

Very encouraging to see how CO2 reshapes both weddings and marriages. Tim and Brittani are also starting a MRT in Sedalia, CO (just south of Denver).

John

Prevenience in Albuquerque

The email below from Peg Batcheller illustrates prevenience - God motivating this woman to call Peg.

This lady believed that if their house church "leader" left that the church could no longer function. (Sounds like traditional church thinking!) I love that Peg and Richard have been captured by a whole different way of thinking and are teaching it to many. The new paradigm is that every believer is truly a priest and that every household is a church. And, from those households, the Kingdom begins to flow into every neighborhood.

Way to go, Peg! We pray that the Lord will motivate many more calls just like this one.

Tell us your story of God taking the initiative.

John

I received a call from a woman who has been in a house church setting with a few others for the past few years. Their "leader" had to move out of town, so they were wondering if there were other HCs they could 'join' to continue receiving teaching. When I shared my heart about each household becoming a 'vital family of Jesus within close access of each neighborhood', she came alive again with a refreshed hope of revitalizing her group of friends. We'll be getting together soon, and I'm sure God will do a new and refreshing work in their circle of friends. Coincidentally, my ex-husband & I attended their house church gathering about 6 years ago, and she remembers me. It will be interesting to see how God has worked in my life over the years, and to see how God has been preparing them as well.

Prevenience in New Zealand

The Lord's prevenience is revealed in many areas. Preparing people of peace who are receptive to the message before we are aware of them. Providing the resources we need before we know we need them. See below for a story from Noah Cremisino of God moving to assemble a church planting team in surprising and unexpected ways before Noah even knew there was a need.

Tell us a story of how you are seeing God work preveniently in your location. And, take a minute to beseech the Lord of the Harvest to thrust out more harvest workers in ChristChurch, NZ.

John

This may be a story of a pre-prevenience given the context of the question, but I think it applies.

As my wife and I prepared to move from Denver to NZ to join the Father in what He's already doing here (with simple church in mind) we felt that God did not intend to send us alone. A team of wonderful people had come together around us (2 different couples) and it seemed as though God had orchestrated things quite nicely.

As time went by, however, it became clear to us and both of the couples that they weren't actually meant to come along - at least not at this point in the journey. And, thus, in a matter of a few months, we were back to being "teamless".

This was not meant to be a deterrent, we didn't sense that it was, but it definitely left us asking God why he'd given us the sense that we were not to go alone.

Skipping along.

To keep it short and sweet - we arrived in NZ in March and within 2 months God answered our questions and fulfilled His promise (about us not going alone). Through the often mind-boggling web of connections we ended up meeting a young couple (same as us) who God had brought to the exact same city as us with almost identical visions of planting house churches and joining the Father in His prevenient plans for the city.

This couple came from South Africa as "tent-making missionaries" to New Zealand, just a year and a half before we did. The "coincidences" are too many to list here - but it's obvious that God has been planning His work here in Christchurch for much longer than any of us could comprehend.

It's an absolute JOY to be on mission with the Father. I can't, for the life of me, understand why anyone would want to do it any other way. He leads and He fulfills. We just obey and watch incredible things take shape all around us.

Prevenience and church planting

Prevenience applies to every area of our lives and that includes church planting which is the focus of the Luke Ten Community and the MRT Experiment.

How freeing this is! Our God is an apostolic God. He is always in the process of birthing new "vibrant families of Jesus" before (which is the meaning of the word "prevenient") we show up. Our job is not to "make it happen" when it comes to church planting. Rather, we get to join Him in this wonderful process of new birth!

No where is more clear than in Acts 10. On one level, we could say that Peter planted a church in the home of Cornelius. However, on a deeper level, we see that God was working preveniently before Peter ever thinks about planting a church. No doubt God has been at work in the life of this military officer for some time as he is described as a "God fearer". Then, God sends an angel to tell him to send for Peter. Then, the Spirit speaks to Peter in the middle of a vision and tells him to go with the men sent from Cornelius. Talk about God taking the initiative!

So, where have you seen God's prevenience in planting churches in your region? It may not be as dramatic as with Cornelius but where are you seeing God take the initiative? Where are "divine connections" occurring? Where are you discovering "people of peace"? Where do you see God at work planting churches?

John

Tim Pynes on coaching

I wanted you to hear from my friend, Tim Pynes, directly about coaching. He is one of the best I've experienced and I encourage you to email him to schedule a free session.

Tim's address: timpynes@gmail.com

John

Prevenience and coaching (3)

So, how do we actually implement the "prevenience principle" in our lives and ministries?

A great starting place is learning to ask "the prevenience questions".

Make-it-happen questions are: "What do we do? How can we get things going again."

Prevenience questions are: "What has God been doing here? What traces of grace can I discern in this life? What history of love can I read in the group? What has God set in motion that I can get in on?" Peterson, The Contemplative Pastor, p. 70.

The prevenience questions are at the core of an MRT. An MRT is simply two or more people with a heart for church planting in a particular region. They meet together once a week to listen to God to see what He is setting in motion. And, to see how they can get in on that.

The prevenience questions are also at the core of coaching. Coaching is simply one person helping another to pay close attention to what God is saying and doing in the life of that person.

Have you seen any evidence of God's prevenience this week?

John

PS. To read more about how an understanding of prevenience shapes how we do house church, go to http://www.lk10resources.com/uploads/1/4/3/5/1435936/prevenience_gods_initiative.pdf

Prevenience and coaching (2)

More from Eugene Peterson on the concept of prevenience:

(An understanding of this important word leads to) "... a disciplined, determined conviction that everything (and I mean, precisely, everything) we do is a response to God's first work, his initiating act. We learn to be attentive to the divine action already in process so that the previously unheard word of God is heard, the previously unattended act of God is noticed. The Contemplative Pastor, p. 69

Some implications...

1. Attention to prevenience is learned. It's a whole way of seeing life that is different from much of what I learned early on in church and seminary. This kind of attention is learned (like everything else) through practice and repetition.

2. Coaching is a great aid in learning this kind of attentiveness. A coach is someone who comes along side of me to help me listen. They help me, not by telling me things, but by asking questions that I might not have thought of and by helping me stay present in the listening process. (There are times for "telling" or "mentoring" but there are also times for just "asking" and "listening".) (BTW, have you emailed Tim Pynes yet to schedule a session with him?)

3. Prevenience is central to church planting. Birthing new house churches is not something that we initiate. God is the one who is already at work in creating a "house of peace" (Lk. 10:5-6). Our part is to be attentive to His prevenient work. This totally changes how we think about church planting. As my friend, Kenny, says, "God does the heavy lifting." I like that!

Other implications that you see?

John

Prevenience and coaching (1)

Prevenience is a word that changed my life and ministry.

Much of my early training centered around what I now call "make it happen ministry". See the need. Set a goal. Develop a plan. Implement the plan. Make it happen. Evaluate. Repeat.

Eugene Peterson in The Contemplative Pastor introduced me to a whole different way of thinking and living and ministering. Talk about a paradigm shift! Here's what he wrote...

In running the church, I seize the initiative. I take charge. I take responsibility for motivation and recruitment, for showing the way, for getting things started. If I don't, things drift. I am aware of the tendency to apathy, the human susceptibility to indolence, and I use my leadership position to counter it. (JW: Sounds like "make it happen ministry" to me!)

(The alternative) is a cultivated awareness that God has already seized the initiative. The traditional doctrine defining this truth is prevenience: God everywhere and always seizing the initiative. He gets things going. He had and continues to have the first word. Prevenience is the conviction that God has been working diligently, redemptively, and strategically before I appeared on the scene, before I was aware there was something here for me to do. (p. 69)

Prevenience. It changes everything.

And, it is the starting point for our discussion of coaching. More tomorrow about this.

John

PS Know any "make it happen ministry" people, who might be ready to hear about "prevenience"? Anyone you need to forward this post to?

Sign up for coaching

We've talked a lot about "vibrant families of Jesus".

But, how exactly does that kind of house church come about? How does a group become "vibrant"? Full of the life of the Spirit?

Clearly this is something God has to do. But, there are ways that we can join Him in this process. And, help others join Him. One of the most powerful skills we can learn that will help others on this journey is the skill or tool of coaching.

That's the reason we have made coaching one of the things we'll focus on this summer. Talking about it is one way to learn but it's even more important to experience it. That's why I'm encouraging you to sign up for a coaching session with my friend, Tim Pynes. Tim is an excellent coach with lots of training and experience. So, I feel sure you will find this to be a valuable experience.

Next step: email Tim and ask him to send you possible times when you can schedule a session. The session can be on the phone (or Skype) or in person if you are in Denver. The coaching can be around any issue that seems important to you - personal or ministry.

So email Tim today at and get on his calendar.

John

Daily Check in on First Five

As you know, we have two cohorts of MRTs this summer. I facilitate one and Hobby Chapin facilitates the other. One of the benefits of this is that each cohort can learn from the other. Hobby posted the following proposal to his cohort and I want to suggest that we also do what he is suggesting.

We want to propose a modification in the expectation of daily check ins on the blog posts. What we have proposed is that you spend your first five minutes on-line each day reading the post and interacting with the content and one another in the comment page. I realize that may be tough for some of you.

Our modified proposal is that you read daily. Continue to step into the practice of the first five. The modification is that you simply post, "I'm in." That way we feel one another's presence. If you have a comment, you are welcome to leave it. Then, we will ask that toward the end of the week you take time to reflect on the topic of the week by sharing a story or a question or an insight pertaining to our weeks posts. By the end of the week you will have checked in 5 times or so and hopefully commented once or twice.

So, let's practice. For this post, please do not comment more than these two words--but no less than these two words--"I'm in."

Can you be in more than one MRT? (2)

Further reflections on Peg Batcheller helping to start four MRTs in New Mexico (see yesterday's post)

Sending. The reality is that the Lord of the Harvest is answering the Lk 10:2b prayer and sending out a multitude of apostolic church planters. The problem is that many of these people aren't what we expected apostles to look like. Most of them haven't been to seminary and haven't been approved by some mission agency. A growing number of these people are women. And, many of these folks didn't even know that they were apostles.

Seeing. But, there is also another side to the 10:2b prayer. One side is that the Lord of the harvest is sending an increasing number of these harvest workers. The other side is that, as I pray this prayer day after day, my "eyesight" changes. With every person I meet, I find myself asking the question, "I wonder if he/she is an apostle?"

Which leads to this question: How do we know they are apostles? Consider this definition for an apostle: A man or woman called and gifted by God to plant multiple churches. So, what I look for is someone who has something in their heart that longs to see these "vibrant families of Jesus" multiply across their city or region.

To see a "vibrant family of Jesus" within easy reach of everyone will require dozens of MRTs in Denver and thousands across the US (how about your country?). I believe that's exactly what we are beginning to see.

Your thoughts?

John

Can you be in more than one MRT?

Can you be in more than one MRT?

Peg Batcheller's comments below illustrates the answer to that question quite well. I'm pretty sure Peg didn't set out to start four MRTs. What she did was pay attention to what God was doing around her. (Did anyone know that New Mexico was going to be a hot bed of apostolic activity?!!)

I'm going to have more to say about this tomorrow. But, today I want you to enjoy what Peg has written below and share your observations with us in the comments.

John

It seems God has put me in a position of having or starting multiple MRTs that all look differently.

1. Richard (Hijar) & I pray, SASHET, and discuss our regions of New Mexico and SE Colorado various times through out the week, but are deciding to be more 'intentional' about it the next 3 months. We mostly 'meet' over the phone. (JW: Peg and Richard are planning to be married this fall. So, this might be an example of apostolic dating!)

2. Carolyn (Spence) lives in Clovis, NM, about 4 hours away. She is new to MRT, but has such a burning desire to see new churches started in her region, that it will be difficult to NOT meet with her. We will skype, pray, and listen to the Lord regularly, when she gets back to town. She has friends who are well equipped to start 3 new house churches, but didn't know how to do that until we recently sat together and asked God to put things into place.

3. There are about 7 of us throughout New Mexico and SE Colorado who have started audio skype calls on the weekends. We all represent different towns or cities, even a Wycliffe Translator from Finland who has recently joined us. Our times of prayer and discussion have been great, and God is refreshing our hearts with a larger vision for the state of NM, and beyond. There are about 30 of us leaders meeting in Ruidoso, NM, this weekend to meet each other face to face, pray together, and ask the Lord what His plan is for the state. We plan to have a joint retreat later in the fall when we can invite simple churches to gather all in one place. We sense a real "knitting and netting" of believers that will change the culture here in the SW. I would never have imagined it would look like this, but God is going before us, showing us what HE wants. We're praying that as we grow, the harvest will have a place to find a healthy spiritual home in any part of the state.

4. Nick & Ramona & I will meet spontaneously and regularly to pray for Albuquerque and God's heart for our city. Nick has already demonstrated his heart in helping others start simple churches, and is planning to meet with various ones in the city to encourage and strengthen the body. He is a great gift to me in the work here.

I appreciate partnering with all of you in MRT. John, I'm glad you mentioned that they will all look a bit different, but I know God has the same end result in mind.... that we send laborers into the harvest, to reap and bring in the harvest. What exciting times we live in!

What does your MRT look like?

I'm thrilled that we will have MRTs in 15-20 different locations in two cohorts this summer! Each MRT is committed to the same core practices for three months but how they work out those practices will look different in each situation.

The MRT that I'm a part of here in Denver meets every Thursday from 9 to 11:30 am at the Sojourners' Coffee Shop. Each week, we check in with SASHET and talk about what God is saying about church planting in Denver. See the video below.

Other MRTs might connect via Skype. Or, they might meet in a home. It would help the rest of us if you could give us a picture of your MRT this summer. Who is in it? Where do you meet? What is your mission field? What's a sample of what you are learning?

You can write your description as a comment below. Or, you can send photos. Or, you can make a short video like we did. This is a community of practice and it's very helpful to see how each group is "practicing".

John

PS. In the video below, you will see that we had we had visitors on that morning. Kent Smith, representing the Abilene MRT, was with us. Also, Chadd Schroeder, representing the MRT in Guadalajara (and, a new by-faith MRT in Texas). To me this is a fore taste of the day when there are a thousand MRTs and you can visit one in any city in the world. How's that for faith!?

The dangers of legalism

Kent Smith (Abilene, TX) posted a great comment on our discussion about "rhythms, routines and practices".

The call for specific practices may suggest to some of us the dangers of legalism. This is understandable enough--I've certainly been wounded in that ditch.

On the other hand, playing it safe by agreeing to values without specific practices is like saying yes to "breakfast" as a principle but refusing to commit to pancakes or eggs. It's a pathway to starvation.

Between these ditches is a road that includes commitment to practice the truths we are learning, and with openness to continue learning and refining our practice as we go.

I'm glad to be on the journey with this community of practice!

Our MRT practices are a way of inviting people to say "yes" to eggs (and pancakes!) for breakfast.

Your thoughts on how we stay on the road and keep out of the ditches on either side of the road?

John

Rhythms, routines and practices (3)

One more post on this topic of spiritual practices. Why? Because this is a key concept for the Luke Ten Community and the MRT Experiments. We don't invite people to be committed merely to values. Rather we invite them to be committed to concrete practices that embody our values.

Alan Hirsch in The Forgotten Ways captures this way of thinking as he talked about his church in Australia. (p. 46-48)

We would not develop a philosophy of ministry per se, but rather a covenant and some core practices. Behind this thinking was the belief that when we talk about core values, the appeal is (only) to the head... What we wanted was to covenant ourselves to a set of practices that embodied the core value and demonstrated it. (Hirsch describes these practices as the DNA of the movement.)

Each group had to be engaged in a healthy diet of spiritual disciplines - the only way to grow in Christlikeness that we were aware of.

...the only other requirement to belong to the movement is that each group is covenanted to multiply itself as soon as it is organically feasible and possible. This ensures healthy multiplication and embeds and ongoing sense of mission.

This is exactly what the MRT 2.0 Experiment is about. A group of people committed to certain core practices for three months who share what they learn along the way. Thanks for being part of this community of practice!

Your thoughts on calling people to core practices?

John

Rhythms, routines and practices (2)

Today, I would like you to watch the short (4 minutes) video below. But, as you watch it, I would like you to think about Paul's words in 1 Tim. 4:7-8.

Train yourself for the purpose of godliness. Physical training has some value but godliness is profitable for all things (in all directions), since it holds promise for the present life and also for the life to come.

The imperative "train yourself" in the Greek is gymnaze from which we get the word "gymnastics". No doubt Paul had in mind the rigorous training that a gymnast commits to when he exhorted Timothy to train himself for godliness. At the heart of this sort of training are specific routines and disciplines that the athlete engages in.

An MRT is two or more people (a team) who have God's heart for the expansion of His kingdom in a city or region. They are committed to spiritual training with a specific set of spiritual disciplines (see the MRT 2.0 Invitation).

*Intentionally paying attention to my heart and your heart daily is a spiritual discipline (see SASHET)

*Writing out my dialogue with God each day and sharing it with you is a spiritual discipline (see VIRKLER)

*Meeting each week with my MRT to listen to the Lord of the Harvest about church planting in my city is a spiritual discipline

*Reading this blog each day and responding is a spiritual discipline

*Investing financially in church planting is a spiritual discipline

What do you see in the video below that relates to spiritual disciplines?

John

Rhythms, routines and practices (1)

John Grisham's goal: to write a page every day.

The best-selling novelist began this routine while he was still practicing law and writing at the same time. "The alarm clock would go off at five, and I would jump in the shower. My office was five minutes away. And I had to be at my desk, at my office, with the first cup of coffee, a legal pad, and write the first word at 5:30, five days a week." Sometimes that one page would take ten minutes, sometimes an hour; often he would write for two hours before he had to turn to his job a lawyer, which he never especially enjoyed.

Sticking to a schedule and maintaining loyalty to ideas is hard. Execution is rarely comfortable or convenient... Developing a consistent daily regimen for execution can help us make ideas happen." Belsky, Making Ideas Happen, p. 98 -102.

In simplest terms, an MRT is

• two or more people
• with a passion to help birth vibrant families of Jesus
• in a particular city or region
• who are relentlessly seeking to live into a specific set of spiritual practices
• and who are in community with other MRTs committed to the same practices

(The MRT practices for the summer of 2010 are spelled out in the MRT Invitation. Let me know if you need another copy.)

In the area of writing, my practice or regimen is to post to this blog post five days a week. How about for you? Do you have any practices in the area of writing you could share with us?

John

John Eldredge and CO2s

As far as I know, John Eldredge has never advocated the "church of two" idea. However, this wonderful quote from the book Love and War by John and Stasi describes perfectly how a CO2 functions in marriage.

Making decisions is probably the number one source of stress, tension, anxiety, pouting, manipulation, and arguments in a marriage. Isn't it true? Well, okay - there is money, and your family, and his parents. But you have to make decisions about money and family and parents, so I still argue that decision making is the mother of all marital strife. As soon as Stasi says, "Honey we need to decide..., " anxiety leaps from within. Aooogha, aooogha. All hands on deck. We have just entered mine-filled waters.

So, we want to offer you what might be the single most helpful thing anyone has ever offered you when it comes to your marriage. Drumroll, please. Aren't you just waiting to hear what it is?

Learning to hear the voice of God, together.

Yes. It is the simplest, most helpful, least practiced treasure and it will literally rescue the two of you in countless ways.

The secret of the Christian life - and the Christian marriage - is that you don't have to figure it out. You don't have to figure life out, you don't have to figure each other out, you don't have to figure parenting out, or money or family. You have a counselor, you have a guide - you have God. What a relief that we don't have to figure it all out! We get to walk with God. That is the beauty of Christian spirituality. This is not about mastering principles; it's about an actual relationship with and actual person who happens to be the wisest, kindest, and, okay, wildest person you will every know.

If every household made this practice - learning to listen to God's voice together - their number one goal, I believe our country (and your country) would be well on the way to transformation. And that's the goal of our MRTs - a vibrant family of Jesus on every block of every city of every country in the world.

Your thoughts on this?

John

Are you "in"?

Are you "in"?

Click on "comments" below and let the rest of us know if you are planning to be part of our community of practice (MRT 2.0) this summer. Also, let us know which cohort you will be with - John's or Hobby's.

John

Are you "in"?

Spiritual research (2)

More from Carolyn Spence's email...

Is there a reason that this "present kingdom" model doesn't seem to be promoted among simple church proponents? If we are truly following where God is going, would he not be working some of the same things today that he did then? Should this not be a part of our expectation and our report?

Absolutely! In fact, the listening (Virkler) part of a CO2 puts us in a place where we can join God in his supernatural work just as Jesus did. See Jn. 5:19.

Shouldn't this be one evidence of a vibrant family of Jesus? Shouldn't his presence among us produce an effect that ministers to people in the same ways he did when he was here? It seems that we do get from the Lord what we seek after, and what we expect. Can we share stories of how we see the kingdom come to encourage each other that this is a part of the normal Christian life? Now I am newer to the MRT, and maybe I am off base, or it’s a topic already covered that I have missed... so please excuse me if it is. Tell me what you think. Carolyn

Carolyn, you are totally "on base". The MRT 2.0 Experiment is designed to provide a basic framework or starting point for spiritual research. My hope is that this spirit of questioning and experimenting will characterize our community and that people will experiment with all kinds of things having to do with helping to birth "vibrant families of Jesus". Carolyn, please take the lead in reporting what you are learning this summer about demonstrations of God's power as it relates to church planting.

Speaking of God's supernatural power, take a look at the story below of healing at our city wide house church gathering in Denver a couple of weeks ago.

John